Friday, 30 October 2015

Another hint that the Kepler system KIC8462852‬ is probably not harbouring an advanced alien civilisation.


Introduction

KIC8462852‬ ( Boyajian et al. 2015 ) has created quite some excitement as perhaps the first example of an alien megastructure eclipsing what appears to be a fairly normal, main sequence star. In particular, Wright et al. have suggested that the light curve is consistent with a Dyson “swarm” (see image left for my poor attempt at how that might actually appear).

For the Dyson swarm scenario, the remarkable depth of the obscuration in the light curves of KIC8462852‬ (dips in the stellar luminosity in excess of 20% are observed) suggests a scale of astro-engineering that is best associated with something approaching a Kardashev Type 2 civilisation - in other words, a civilisation with energy requirements of order 400E24 Watts or 400 YW (yottawatt) - i.e. around 14 orders of magnitude greater than the current total energy consumption by our own species on planet Earth).

Waste (leakage) Radio emission form a Type II civilisation

If one assumes that advanced Type II civilisations use radio waves to communicate across their planetary system (and why wouldn't they - radio waves are cheap to generate, diffract around and sometimes through solid structures, are immune to scattering and absorption by dust and are harmless when permeating the local environment of complex biological lifeforms), then it becomes interesting to consider what level of broadband artificial radio emission we might expect from such an advanced civilisation, and whether this can be detected by the current or next generation of radio telescopes. Note that this is a rather different approach from convention SETI radio searches currently underway, since the goal there is to detect artificial narrow-band carrier wave signals that are a clear indicator of intelligent life.

I estimate that our own civilisation (Kardashev Type ~ 0.7 - note that it's a logarithmic scale...) currently emits an equivalent isotropically radiated power (EIRP) of at least 50 MW at frequencies < 2000 MHz. This figure is likely an underestimate, and is based only on the collective output of GSM base stations located around the globe (there are 750000 of these in the USA alone with average output power levels of ~50 Watts). These antennas provide relatively broad coverage, sweeping across the horizon in all directions. I have excluded the billions of handheld devices worn outside in the open air (these deliver average powers of << 1 Watt) and relatively rare but powerful radar systems (the average output of an airport radar system is a few hundred Watts but there are probably only a few hundred systems in the world). Other broad beam transmitters such as satellite communication systems, deep space networks, radio and tv transmitters, ionospheric radar transmitters, power-lines and other likely absorbed indoor radio devices (house-hold wifi routers, laptops etc) are also excluded from this estimate. While almost all of the available radio spectrum from 1-2000 MHz is occupied by various radio communication systems, it should be noted that the GSM base stations are currently limited to a few main operational frequency bands e.g. 930-960 MHz and 1805-1880 MHz.

Level of waste radio emission expected from KIC8462852

In this back-of-an-envelope analysis, we make two assumptions: (i) the waste radio emission generated by a communicating civilisation scales linearly with its total energy consumption and (ii) the radio emission is fairly evenly distributed across the available radio spectrum. Assumption (i) predicts a total isotropic waste radio emission output from a Type 2 civilisation associated with KIC8462852‬ of ~ 50E20 Watts or 2.5E12 Watts/Hz (10-2000 MHz). Since KIC8462852 is located at a distance of ~ 450 pc or ~ 1.4E19 metres, this output translates to a flux density of 0.1 Jansky, a level of output that is readily detectable by most radio telescopes today with integration times of only a few seconds. Note that as a main-sequence star, any natural emission from KIC8462852 is essentially undetectable at these sensitivity levels.

Radio emission observed from KIC8462852 via shallow, existing radio surveys

Relatively shallow radio surveys (e.g. NVSS and WENSS) detect no radio emission at the position of KIC8462852 (see images below: first the WSRT WENNS 326 MHz image, followed by VLA NVSS 1400 MHz image - the green cross hairs indicate the position of the KIC8462852). NVSS reaches 1-sigma r.m.s. noise levels better than 0.0025 Jy i.e. about 40 times better than the 0.1 Jy emission that we might predict from KIC8462852‬. With a resolution of 45 arcseconds, NVSS is unlikely to resolve any radio emission associated with KIC8462852‬, even if this is distributed on scales associated with a space-faring civilisation active within an extended planetary system. Naturally, any conclusions based on this analysis depend crucially on the validity of assumption (i). However, much deeper integrations by the JVLA and LOFAR can place far better limits (x1000) on any broadband radio emission that might be associated with KIC8462852, and are to be greatly encouraged (together with conventional SETI searches too). Finally, it should be noted that the full SKA and other next generation telescopes such as the NG VLA will go 50-100x deeper than current facilities, permitting interesting limits to placed on nearby stellar systems within a few hundred light years from the Sun.

113 comments:

Carla said...

Just a question: Given how we have been using radio for ~150 years, and we haven't yet got to be a Type I Kardashev civilization, I would assume that a much more evolved civilization could maybe invent/discover other means to communicate, much more effective than radio waves. Couldn't be this a reason for the apparent lack of communications from a Type II alien civilization (btw, I don't think there's an alien civilization on the KIC8462852 system. But it's quite a wonderful thought...)

Joachim Reinhold said...

Why should they use the same technology? What if a different idea is used? Too me radio signals feel somewhat old-fashioned for a civilisation harvesting power dyson style :)

Mike Garrett said...

They should have the same technology because they have the same physics...

LLadybug said...

Have you considered the possibility that these beings may be telepathic?

Tom J said...

My only complaint with your reasoning is that over the distances a Type 2 civilization would need to communicate, radio waves would be too slow for effective communication. If there is something better out there, I'm sure finding it would have been a high priority for communication with spacecraft, colonies, bases and work platforms.

Maybe they've developed a way to transmit information via entanglement, making communication almost instantaneous. And uninterceptible as a bonus.

Kenneth Coney said...

I am with Carla. It is the only flaw in the concept. 300 years ago the idea of electric lights was unknown to us. Back then we could therefore assume that all civilizations used candles, torches, or oil lamps to see at night. Obviously since we now know of electricity, such an expectation would have been fallacious. So would they use radio for communication? I am thinking not necessarily. Not if their technology has found something better. I can no more describe what that would be than a 15th century man could describe an electric light or a fighter jet. I would suspect the use of 'radio' by a level 2 civilization would be akin to how many folks today on our planet still read by oil lamp? A few hobbyists, and maybe for strictly short range emergency use. The distances are two large in a Dyson cluster for radio to be the best way.

Unknown said...

What if the use quantum entanglement to communicate?

Dan Burkard said...

What if you use quantum entanglement to communicate?

1. Instant communication.
2. Secure (undetectable)
3. Cheaper?..

knarFkcalB said...

Imagine an isolated tribe which communicates by smoke signals. One day a hunter in the tribe returns from a hunting trip which ranged further away than any tribe member had traveled before. He reports observing strange evidence possibly indicative of large group of "others" dwelling in a valley several days travel in distance.

A couple of sharp-eyed tribesmen climb a nearby peak which affords a long-distance view of said valley, and observe intently for a full day. They return to the tribe and report they saw no smoke signals, meaning the valley is surely devoid of "others".

In fact the valley contains an advanced population which communicates electronically and they use clean technology which creates no "smoke".

Steve Conklin said...

For all we know radio may be similar to the Romans using lead for plumbing and it just isn't done anymore - too dangerous.

Idiocrates said...

"They could be using something other than radio"

Give Mike some credit - he's only a professor of physics. He only heads a national research organisation that looks into this stuff. It's not like he's spent the majority of his life studying, researching, speculating and contemplating this kind of thing. Oh whoops.

Why are people so quick to assume that anyone at the top of a scientific field is an idiot? Would you make these comments to Stephen Hawking? How does your training stack-up in this field? Do you know the difference between broadcast and narrowband? Do you truly appreciate what a 'boundary condition' is? Do you know what it means? Do you have any clue how many boundary conditions we know on what is possible in this universe versus what we knew 150 years ago?

Here's a couple of nuggets to chew on for all you armchair geniuses out there;

If you think we are just as likely to be blindsided by a new technology as our Roman predecessors then you are making the assertion that the proportion of what we know versus what we don't know is still almost as large as back then. This would imply that the difference in knowledge between then and now is insignificant compared to the complexity of the physical laws of the universe and hence that these laws are (to all practical purposes) infinitely complex. BTW Newton pretty much knocked this one on the head.

Clarke's Third Law ("Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic") might appear valid in this context but there is one thing that people often fail to realise about the context of the statement itself. It only applies to a civilisation that has not yet developed the principles of Rationalism or Inductive Logic. You see we had this thing a while back, you may not have heard of it yet in whatever backwoods you come from, it was called "The Renaissance" and it was a revolution in how western culture perceived the world. In turn it lead to a change in how we think. It wasn't a small change, like deciding same sex marriage is okay, it was a massive change in how the general populace actually process and assess stimuli. It was such an enormous change that even the most uneducated of us is completely dumbfounded when we come across pre-renaissance thought; it's practically alien to anyone with even a rudimentary modern education. And what it means in this context is that should we encounter a "sufficiently advanced technology" it may *appear* to be magic to our eyes but to our brains it will simply generate the question "how does that work?"

Yes, they might be using quantum entanglement. Yes, they might be narrowbanding. Yes, they might be shooting masers through microscopic wormholes that shortcut most of their stellar neighbourhood (that's my personal contribution). But if they are, they are doing an awful lot of stuff *without* radio. Look at our world. Radio didn't supplant everything that came before it. Optical fibre didn't supplant radio. Or copper. We still send physical letters *just like the Romans did* and we still use some of the same words as they did. Heck, we still (effectively) use a heliograph to ask the moon how far away it is.

So before you try to inject your incredibly learned retort of "They could be using something other than radio", maybe consider what it might be, how it might work, how feasible that is based on the boundary conditions that we know constrain what is possible in this universe and whether a professor of physics heading up a national astronomical research institute would become such without being able to think critically.

You might also want to provide some working and a nice research paper on how electrons can be moved, energised and de-energised *without* creating radio waves and other photons. *That* would get you some respect.

*sigh*

petsie said...

Thanks for the interesting article and to Idiocrates!

Luka Marinović said...

Well, there are some things that don't stand up to research:
1. GSM signal is certainly not something that you want to wanna hear from Moon, much less from a distant Galaxy!
2. GSM antennas are made to make signal disperse in horizontal wave from source...not upward!
3. GSM signal is not constant!
So a better idea of "radio dissipation" would be made from:
a) radio AM/FM signals
b) digital signal upload to geo-stationary sattelites
c) digital upload from DSN to rovers or probes in our Solar systems
d) radar images we use for NEO (from NORAD radars & Arecibo)
;)

Jim Bryant said...

The electromagnetic compatibility at those power levels would be virtually impossible to deal with, rendering the spectrum unusable. We have to use some common sense too.

Also, how many carriers is that 50 watts from a GSM tower spread equally across? switchover to an OFDM system on a large scale by any civilization would make that civilization actually harder to detect.

Aurans Shbiernak said...
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Aurans Shbiernak said...

@Idiocrates
"Give Mike some credit - he's only a professor of physics.[...]"

That's why I feel a little uncomfortable when reading certain statements, like "They should have the same technology because they have the same physics...", coming from a person at the top of this scientific field.
Indeed, every civilization across the universe could develop (and regularly make use of) radio technology. However, we're still using radio because at the present day it remains the only known and affordable wireless communication tecnique. Copper wires and optical fibers won't ever replace radio waves (wired vs wireless), but nevertheless, who would make use of carrier pigeons - or smoke signals, like the previous user's example - nowadays?
We're still using paper letters, yes, like ancient Romans, but you have to admit that's not the habit anymore. In fact, physical mail delivery soon is going to disappear, and so will happen in near (or far) future to many current technologies: internal combustion engines, incandescent lamps, methane gas boilers, liquid crystal displays, fax, corded phones, optical data storage, etc...
Are we going to use radio waves forever? Honestly, I don't know. I can't know it, neither can Prof. Garrett, or you.

I'm not trying to demonstrate that alien life exists on KIC8462852, I'm not an astronomer, but I'm graduated in biotech and I can state to know well the scientific method. For this reason, with all due respect to Prof. Garrett, I'm entitled to express my annoyance toward many assumptions here, those are all but scientific.

Matthew Burch said...

Your argument makes some sense, however I'd like to point something out.

If there is a civilization that is in such dire need of energy that they will go to the lengths that we might be seeing to implement power gathering from solar energy, it seems highly likely to me that a great deal of resources would have been devoted to improving the efficiency of their communications and other technology before starting to build a cloud of stellar power collection satellites.

Radio is omnidimensional. There is, of course, a lot to be said for radio communications, but we have far more efficient methods to transmit data for most of our needs now, if we were to choose to use them.

On-planet, they might be using fiber optics and extremely efficient wifi nodes that broadcast so little power that atmospheric interference makes it nearly impossible to detect it. Off planet, they might be using whisker lasers.

Perhaps it might be best to determine what the most efficient way we can think of to transmit solar power from satellites is, and scan for those frequencies in the electromagnetic spectrum. If they are moving power around on such a grand scale, waste from power transmission is likely to be detectable, even if their communications are not.

One more thing came to mind as well. It's possible that they do not want to be detected. In which case, their civilization may be intentionally concealing itself. When you consider what might be out there, it's not a bad idea to be quiet and keep your head down.

Jon Strayer said...

If you build a Dyson "swarm" you aren't hiding. If we can detect it anyone they would need to hide from can detect it.

And sure, they could be using communication technology we haven't thought of yet. But if you want to do science then the question is "What's the evidence?" And currently the answer is "none".

As much as we want this to be an advanced civilization, the odds are that it is not.

Matthew Burch said...

John Strayer,

IF this is an intelligent civilization and not some new sort of phenomenon, even if they are trying to hide, there will be some evidence of their presence. If they do have a policy of concealment, radio noise would be one of the most important things to control.

Also, if your comments about new technology and science was directed at me, I did not suggest any new technologies. I suggested technologies that we already use. Additionally, if you want to do science, a lack of evidence is evidence. It is evidence that there is not a radio-noisy civilization there. That may mean there is no civilization there, or that there is a radio-quiet civilization there.

Personally, I suspect that this isn't a civilization. It would be interesting to be proved wrong though.

Jon Strayer said...

Mat Burch,

My first paragraph was in response to your last paragraph. My second paragraph was in response to several comments I read.

My third paragraph was just my conclusion.

Scott Esser said...

Getting back to the actual, detected phenomenon at KIC8462852, I wonder if the large drops in light from the star are not caused by an object orbiting the star at all. Since it is an F-type star, it has a rather slow rotational period, so if a sufficiently large object were to be pulled into the star - say a brown dwarf star - at a slow enough velocity, would it be possible that the incoming object would be slowly merged with the star or at least leave a dark pock mark similar to what we saw when Shoemaker-Levy 9 impacted Jupiter?

Epiphiana Eklipze said...

First of all, if extraterrestrial species are able to telepathically communicate with each other; what's the point of Radio communication? Searching for Radio signals is almost similar to searching for "cars" on other planets as to define advanced life...

Humanity may be a rare species in the galaxy having evolved from tree climbing monkeys!

Mike Kemble said...

I too am of the opnion that an advanced civilisation would not be using something as old fashioned as radio waves. Take a leaf out of Star Trek. Spock: we are getting signals in an unknown frequency?

Uhura: Captain, its old style radio communications.

Also radio waves are not strong enough to be able to transmit to ships across space. Whever the technology of 'star trek' it far surpasses anything we have now and allegedly ships can video link across the universe!!!

NoMasAsfalto said...

To someone who mentioned that members of an advanced civilization could be communicating via telepathy: even if that should be the case, their systems and machinery would have to communicate heavily as well, as it happens in our case, and radio waves would still be the most logical form of communication in this area (unless they have discovered something new like Quark-Unsigned Asynchronous Carrier-lepton Krunching(or QUACK).

George Morrone said...

Mike Kemble said: " Whever the technology of 'star trek' it far surpasses anything we have now"

Yes, it's called fiction.

Kerry Lyons said...

What if they just (gasp) talk to each other.

I've read too many things to think that telepathic communication would target just one entity... probably every(one?) hears it.

Then that reminds me of swarm activity.

Ants are the most successful at what they do than any living thing on this planet... aren't they?

Kerry Lyons

Jeff said...

What about transmission of SETI radio frequencies *from us*? With the 50MW radio frequency output you described, why not use a portion to beat a drum out to the heavens? There is no reason to think alien life isn't looking for *us* too!

Jeff Minter

Mike Andrews said...

Lots of people are coming up with how civilizations could be communicating NOW, but with the extreme distance radio could have still been in use at the time we receive the info here on Earth. Sure 500 years from now they may have to find new ways of detecting signals, but right now radio is still a viable option. The only catch is if they were using radio 1000 years ago and we missed that time period, then yes we should be looking for other stuff right now too.

Mike Andrews

Anders Schönstrom said...

Beacause we are sharing the same physics with aliens doesnt mean they have to even consider using radiowaves. We dont use stoneaxes even if the neanderthals used it! :)

Luka Marinović said...

@Anders S.
yes, neanderthals used stone-axes to cut down trees...we still use metal ones, the same way to cut down trees!
physics stays the same...just that tools get improved...like out radio signals from analog to digital! ;)

Max said...
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Max said...

If there is life out there they do have the same physics as us and that during there evolution they did use radio waves. But I'm betting that system of communication was probably eclipsed by quantum entanglement, just as DSL has given way to fiber optics or the telegraph to the cell phone. The radio waves they most likely used have passed our detectors tens of thousands of years ago. Quantum entanglement can not be detected and it would allow for instant communication all around a growing civilization. We need eyes on this star and that will tell us the true story. I'm looking forward to this, or my son will, or my grandson. :)

Robert Yates said...

All of these theories are interesting, some a little kooky in my mind, others may be perfectly logical if not likely.

The over-all conclusion however, regardless of the nature of an unfamiliar civilization (theoretical or otherwise) is that we here on Earth must use our technology.

Being forced to use our technology requires us to seek out technology that is at the very least minimally compatible with our own. This is why someone like my self, with a computer science background, find movies such as Independence Day to be extremely annoying. To write a virus for a system, one needs to know not only the language of that system but how that system works! A virus that pops up a laughing skull and overrides their systems etc would require knowledge of the nature of the language, how the components work, protocols, and far more than one could learn, even if we had an old busted up fighter/drone. Let alone security etc.

This suggests to me that we, being Earthlings, are forced to look for "people" (however one might define the term) that uses information just as we do. We know how it works, we know what to look for. To say things like "Quantum Entanglement" or "Telepathy" or a combination of worm-holes and mazers is tantamount to saying "Why bother?"

The whole point is that some civilation out there would have to use a technology similar to ours in some point in their history and it's that moment we are looking for. The Earth is almost completely undetectable by any alien civilization, this is because we've been transmitting for such a short period of time that we'd have to have a ship right around the corner to pick up the very oldest and faintest of our signals. Think about it, can you think of a system or extra-terrestrial body that is outside our own solar system that could be reached in say... 100 years? 200? I can't recall any radio transmissions, other than natural occurrences that came from our neck of the woods pre-1895 when Marconi invented the Wireless Telegraph. We couldn't even produce our own electrical current until Alessandro Volta around 1800 (Wikipedia reference there, but the date is fairly accurate).

So we've been producing an electrical signal, produced by man, for the last 215 years... That's still well within our own neighborhood, heck it's at most 215 light years. That means, if we were to have anyone detect us, they'd have to be at:

HD-190228 215 light-years
HD-219449 146 light-years
Gamma-Cephei 38.50 light-years
Gliese-876 15 light-years
Epsilon-Eridani 10.40 light-years

That also means that if we want to look beyond these systems, you're looking for a far older system and hopefully we started look at the right moment. Interestingly, any radio detected from these sources might come from a civilization at our own technology level, considering they'd be able to detect us and thus in theory we could detect them just as easily... we've not heard a peep, and so it could be that, in our area, we're the noisy neighbors.

Just food for thought.

Luka Marinović said...

@Robert
don't know where you live, but 2015-1895=120y! ;)

btw, you also have to include radio gain of antenna used (GBT or Arecibo) & receiver power...as well as transmitter power - which was not great when Marconi did his radio signal in 1895.!

so, at best, we have about 50y or maybe 80y of enough power to be heard beyond Moon...much less Jupiter! ;)

Jeff said...

There isn't a set time period in which a civilization invents radio. The catch you described is the timing. We would have to be listening 120 years ago if their civilization broadcast just then.

Jeff said...

Physics applies on a grand scale. Cosmology's power to describe macro scale order, order that's 4% of the universe. All this organized matter can be observed from earth based and satellite instruments. The likelihood that we, the humans, could find a signal in the enormous magnitude of the night sky is to me a bit presumptuous. Indulge in my scientific exposition for a moment: we invest several billion dollars into an array of narrowband lasers, we orbit this $100 billion laser setup directly around the earth and, for lack of a less cool term - disco party our planet for anything watching. To speak to Matt Andrew's comment above - it would be a long term project for earth. There is a minimal chance that someone would be watching for an outward facing signal laser array at any particular time. solar arrays and extremely efficient machining could someday make contact a reality, though, if we found a way to not only listen but talk.

Jeff Minter

Anders Schönstrom said...

Yes. Timing is a good thing. Both sender and receiver of messages must have same technology invented and up and going ready for contact when the message reaches one of them. If one of them sent a message which was picked up 50 years later and they received a answer yet another 50 years later they would probably have missed our answer since they abandoned that old technology and turned to some ting else. We dont use Morse-code anymore either, since we invented something else in the century following.. The incoming radio signal must be tuned to the right frequency and it must be strong enough to be picked up. Because of long distances with therefore weak incoming signals, the signal could be missed completely as a weak "interference" on their monitor, Wgo knows,,Perhaps we missed several attempts from aliens on our tv sets when we thought of them as interference only.? :-)
I think the only solution to the problem with distance, timing etc is to get rid of this problem with once for all and start thinking out of the box inventing some device that take us to the stars instantly! Perhaps with the speed of the expanding universe itself! Perhaps with quantum physics, I dont know! And I do not know how such a device would work but Im certain something similar is going to be invented. Its the right way. :-)

Eric Awful said...

What if they don't want to be detected? How would they go about doing that?

Jeff said...

Probably by remaining silent. The universe is an awfully quiet place.

Jeff said...

How about a shuttle that creates/annihilates an exact antimatter copy of itself around itself. The anti-shuttle would continuously form and annihilate, propelling the shuttle to greater speeds. The shuttle would have to somehow withstand the second part but seems like one way to gain momentum.

Anders Schönstrom said...

A shuttle propelled with sheets of antimatter..hmm..yes perhaps.
Or creating a 'quantum copy' duplicate shuttle instantly in a fraction of a second at the other side of the galaxy perhaps? sending pictures of the place to us before we decide to travel there. ?
:) I think I need a break. My brain just exploded. Ill be back :)

Luka Marinović said...

@Eric
well, they might use digital signal for TVs, which use much less power for a better picture on TV...
they also might use a lots of small stations of 50-300W, like we use for GSM devices...that would be hard to find!
they also might use a copper, aluminum wires or optic fibers...you can't tap easily into that!
...
also, background noise it pretty noisy...so don't expect us find them so easily!

@Jeff
nope...if a shuttle creates anti-shuttle...their annihilation would just BLOW UP everything in vicinity of several parsecs!
so just create few atoms of anti-matter & release it behind in a chamber like rocket exhaust...that would make some explosion, which would propel the craft/shuttle forward! ;)

Bluehowler Robinson said...

I'm with Carla; just because radio waves are the best way we can try to communicate, doesn't mean that's the only option.
In 100 years, if we survive, perhaps we will discover those other options!

Andreas Grois said...

To all suggesting Quantum Entanglement as a means of communication: As far as we know (and it's pretty well understood) it cannot be used to transmit data. Measurements on entangled particles generate correlated, but ultimately random results. This correlation can be utilized in quantum cryptography, but the actual information - the encrypted data - still has to be transmitted through a different channel.

And another thing: The entangled particle has to be transmitted as well somehow...

Ken ibn Anak said...

Well I am thinking that if they use quantum qntanglement (somehow) for communication, then the vacuum foam in their area should be pumping out more chronons than usual. I also think, given the distances involved from one side of the swarm to the other, a lot of EM communication would be carried on laser beams. So I would check for coherent photons emitting from that direction. Now how measurable any of that would be at our distance from that star, with our own primitive civilization is a different matter.

SCHMETZERAMA said...

I don't believe we will find civilizations by looking this way. It's is such a miracle that we are in the sweet situation that we are. Soooo many things had to come together to give life a chance on earth! If one of the many things that happened in our distant past didn't, we would not of had the chance to evolve to the capacity that we have. Take for instance, if Theia hadn't crashed into us and formed our "huge" moon, our planet would of spun wildly and would not be steady and stable. I mean what are the chances that another "earth" would of had the same thing happen to it along with all the other miracles that gave us the stability that we have?! I think that if there is another earth like planet out there, the chances of life evolving into something as smart as us is very, VERY unlikely! Distances are too vast to cover even if we somehow found a glimmer of hope. Humanity and even earth do not have enough time to overcome the challenges to break the light speed barrier. We have less than 1 billion years before our sun cooks us off the face of the earth. I'm sure humanity will doom us waaaay before the sun will though...

feierbach said...
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feierbach said...

Just two comments:
1) NASA is considering using laser communication for moon, mars and deep space missions due to the greater bandwidth. Since lasers have very high directionality they would be very hard to detect unless they were aimed at us which would be accidental.
2) I think we will discover how to use quantum entanglement for near instant communication since a test was discovered a year ago that could detect entanglement in a group of atoms without breaking entanglement. That is the Rosetta Stone of quantum instant communication. Suppose Alice has 10 boxes of atoms labeled A1 ... A5 and B1 ... B5. Now Alice (in San Francisco) entangles each A box with the corresponding B box and hands all the B boxes to Bob. Bob is told to test his B boxes at a specific time when he arrives in Paris. Moments before that time Alice zaps box A1 breaking entanglement to B1. If we call unentangled a "1" and entanglement a "0" then we just sent "10000" in binary or 16 decimal near instantly from San Francisco to Paris. No one has tried this yet but it seem possible if you can keep entanglement going long enough. That's been a big problem but they are getting better at it.

Scott Esser said...

@feierbach, that process allows for one-way, previously-scheduled message sending over any distance, which is great, but does not allow for any response without meeting physically to share another big of paired particles. There may be a way to change this, and I'm sure that there will be plenty of research into it, but future capability dues nothing for current capability.

The reason we look for radio signals is that they provide an easy way to send signals with intelligence at light speed and we have enough experience with it to know when a signal contains intelligence. We don't have that experience with much else, but even more importantly, we don't have FUNDING for looking for other types of communication. Another important point is the fact that most radio listening is not done with the intent to find intelligent signals, but for radio astronomy, with SETI tacked onto it as a result of minimal funding.

We may eventually have the funding, the technology, AND the expertise necessary to search for non-radio-based signals in as large a way as radio SETI, but that may be a very long time out. Funding alone is a massive hurdle that even radio SETI has to contend with every single year.

Scott Esser said...

@feierbach, that process allows for one-way, previously-scheduled message sending over any distance, which is great, but does not allow for any response without meeting physically to share another big of paired particles. There may be a way to change this, and I'm sure that there will be plenty of research into it, but future capability dues nothing for current capability.

The reason we look for radio signals is that they provide an easy way to send signals with intelligence at light speed and we have enough experience with it to know when a signal contains intelligence. We don't have that experience with much else, but even more importantly, we don't have FUNDING for looking for other types of communication. Another important point is the fact that most radio listening is not done with the intent to find intelligent signals, but for radio astronomy, with SETI tacked onto it as a result of minimal funding.

We may eventually have the funding, the technology, AND the expertise necessary to search for non-radio-based signals in as large a way as radio SETI, but that may be a very long time out. Funding alone is a massive hurdle that even radio SETI has to contend with every single year.

Steven Proveaux said...

You really don't think that it's very likely that there is a type II civilization on
KIC8462852? Just because there are no detectable radio emitions, doesn't mean that there aren't other possible ways they could be communicating. It's been proven here on earth that information can be encoded and transmitted in light waves. If we can do that who knows what other technologies a type II civilization would've discovered by now. Even if they are a few million years further ahead of us we would only be able to barely grasp their intelligence levels.

tmg1701 said...

The argument that advanced civilizations must use radio waves because we don't know of anything better is arrogant. Someone earlier argued that we couldn't make the short-sighted mistakes the Romans did because we know a much larger percentage of all there is to know than they did. GIVE ME A BREAK!! All there is to know is probably infinite and 95% of infinity is the same as 1% of infinity.

The fact is we don't know what we don't know. A fish, for instance, doesn't know that it doesn't know calculus. We don't know what kind of communications are possible beyond our understanding. It certainly possible they don't use radio signals for the same reason we don't use smoke signals – something better came along.

Timo Kebel said...

Well, we recently talked about networking through lightsources or better known as LiFi. Besides that there was QC Quantum Correlation. So if a civiliazation like ours reaches a method to use QC for communications there wouldn't be a radio-signal required to transfer a message. Since the only interaction taking place is the change of two similar particles in different places. Think about that. They might have once had radio but at the point of when you're capable of building stellar structures you probably need more efficient and secure ways to communicate. Anyway we still don't know what's inside KIC8462852 . I hope we'll figure it out.

Kilted God said...

My best guess is that these types of varitation will be found in about 0.01% of stars who had or have planetary companions.

I think the perhaps the rotation of the star surface is what we are seeing. The dips are because some large planetary object(s) have collided with this star and we are seeing the 'thermal shadow' of cooler material on the suns surface which is yet to ignite or disperse through the sun. Such collisions also affect the rotation speed of the suns surface if struck at an oblique angle the surface of the star can appear to rotate much faster than the main mass of the star. Over thousands of years the new surface material will heat up and the surface (heloitic atmosphere) spin will gradually slow
as rotational momentum is passed to the star's core through drag.

This is my best guess.

rich1051414 said...

Even if ET had a better way to communicate, if they are sufficiently advanced, they know how to electromagnetically communicate. And because they know how, they will be using it in some regard for some purpose, even if communication has been mostly replaced by another technology. Going Electromagnetically silent would be an intentional course of action, not a natural one, so one could assume most civilizations would be making a lot of noise unless they want to hide.
Maybe they are hiding and we have not learned why yet. Maybe we just can't detect it well enough yet, or maybe they aren't out there. But the idea that they will all see electromagnetic communication as too 'primitive' seems silly to me. Hell, people still send letters in the mail even today. Maybe we will pick up a school kids science project soon :)

Gary Graves said...

If SETI continues to use Radio Telescopes to try detect Alien signals then were going to be waiting for a long time, and then even if we do find a source, these Aliens will be as Primitive as us, My reasoning is Radio, Radio it self is a very primitive form of communication & any advanced race would of developed beyond Radio as we know it.

I run BOINC 24/7 because I love the idea of contact, However we do need to invent other forms of communications and soon.

Kerry Lyons said...

My mind has been blown several times during this thread.

Amazing! Really, my brain's growing, I feel it lol!

This is like in first grade when numbers made sense. Wow did my mind grow!

And btw, I agree with what Andreas Grois said about quantum entanglements, if they are being used for communication... that if they are, they still have to be using a different kind of channel to transmit it. My thinking all along, but I didn't realize it till he said it.

Fascinating. Y'all are educating a dumb hick from PA with a simple education of 2 bachelor degrees.

Thanks!

Kerry Lyons

Kerry Lyons said...

Oh... and space isn't silent... it's so noisy that when telephones were beginning to be routinely used they didn't know where the static came from; the static was simply space noise.

I've been around long enough to actually remember either static on the phone or hearing my older relatives talking about it.

Thanks again.

Kerry Lyons

P.S. How on earth could you post anonymously to this thread??

George Morrone said...

Can anyone answer this: what is the maximum distance from earth an alien civilization that has the same technology we have, be able to detect signals from earth? For example, if a civilization like ours was 100 light years from earth, would their SETI search detect us?

Tihomir Delač said...

My opinion is, for an operation on those scales. if we presume something inteligent,and a fragment of an dyson sphere it would be an inteligence of a diferent sort, not an inteligence comprised of human like beings, because humans cant organize big engeneering efforts on such scale, not ewen comprehend how would it be done, we are talking about blocking all the sunlight, it is a huge thing, are all the neighbouring planets in our solar system enough material for that, how would u go about draining material from jupiter, to get a starter in building a dyson sphere, where do you get your starter energy, industry, machinery etc.. It would be an engeneering effort that lasted for thousands of years, non stop, there is no civilisation that lasted that long on earth, from start to finish of a dyson sphere project they would not be the same speeces any more. im talking about 50 000 to 100 000 years to finish the work, and how about maintenance? and solar flares? comets? wouldnt it be cheaper to invent some other source of energy?

Alan Ettridge said...

I have long since considered the issue of entanglement (as others) and do not consider the 'event' to be part of our 3 spatial dimensions, we simply observe the effect of the event that occurs in another dimension (analogy; stand in front of two mirrors at right angles and the images are identical no matter what actions occur - the mirrors being our 3 spatial dimensions the actual event is in another). - Its not too unreasonable an approach to say that as we do not understand how communication would occur in other dimensions its reasonable to explore the possibility of non-light speed trapped communications in these other dimensions. I know this more speculative than near to fact but why not?

Anders Schönstrom said...

Kerry and others got me thinking about several things here, Very interesting blog.

Ive been participating in the seti home project for several years and one day the screensaver showed three consecutive blips on the screen and I took a screenshot. Yeah. Aliens perhaps ;)Later on I started thinking about distances and how different stages of evolution in civilizations would affect the possibility that they would ever take contact with each other. Let alone "direct" contact. The waste distances and non syncronous evolution that different species do, would make communication very hard if not nearly infinite using electromagnetic waves. But I do support SETI. I do! It runs smoothly in my Boinc manager and I have saved my screenshot of "The Three Blips".
Meanwhile I try to understand other approaches. For instance. Could we use quantum entanglements or not. Could we perhaps use other approaches like: The speed of the expanding universe? etc. etc. There must be other ways. Da Vinci in the 15th century didnt know of lasers, microwaves or quasars when he was alive.

http://www.wikihow.com/Send-a-Private-Message-on-Google%2B

Chris Scheer said...

Have to agree with one thing Matthew Burch said...
"One more thing came to mind as well. It's possible that they do not want to be detected. In which case, their civilization may be intentionally concealing itself. When you consider what might be out there, it's not a bad idea to be quiet and keep your head down. "

Considering our own history, I say keep quiet and out of sight is probably a good idea as well. Going by the odds, odds are if we make contact with another intelligent alien species, they will literally eat us for dinner. (Apologies to Rod Serling for stealing "To Serve Mankind" theme ;-)

Robert Kiser said...

Science means you go with what you know and can measure; while a hypothetical civilization around KIC8462852 may be using some wild new means of communication we don't yet know, we can only measure what we do know, and base our deductions and inferences on that. Anything beyond that is speculation, and not science.

wildwillard said...

Its a giant sunspot

Sr Shobe said...

What I think is missing here is....thinking outside the box...our physics is only as good as our civilization makes it....we keep coming up with new things every few decades....maybe to another civilization we are dangerous and undeveloped! For any civilization advanced enough to use interstellar space travel, they must have developed a 'communications' much faster than our antique radio waves! We can hardly get outside of our Solar System with what we have.....folks we are REALLY insignificant in the whole scheme of things....start thinking outside of the box.

Gen Erator said...

I second Dan Burkard's comment.

Gen Erator said...

Chris Scheer, if these civilisations have developed technology so advanced surely they have evolved past the point of wanting to destroy everything they come into contact with, this is a very primitive mindset.

They are most likely ignoring us as they find us far too dangerous and primitive to contact, not only that but the fact that this light is nearly 1500 years old means what we are seeing is very much old hat.

Gen Erator said...

Scott Esser, surely it would make more sense to have them in pairs, one for transmit and one for receive, just as we do with cables?

bob atcpu said...

USE ENTANGLEMENT COMMUNICATION ITS MORE THAN 10,000 TIMES FASTER THAN LIGHT

bob atcpu said...

OTHER TOPIC >>NASA IS COMPLETING THE STUDIES ON THE >CANNAE<<DRIVE

AND THE Q DRIVE AND THE EM DRIVE

AND THEY WORK !

Gary Graves said...

We keep mentioning civilisation's end up destroying themselves & that's supposed to be just of Theory So therefore in reality we've not a single darn clue what where talking about.
We can only go from what know & supposed to of learnt & it isn't much at all in the grand Scheme of things.

Personally I think where close, though I'm sure they or should I say ...some of them don't want anything to do with us, though the others are just buying there time.

MrSpecial said...

I read a comment from one who doubted the existence of extraterrestrial intelligences by stating the way life evolves makes it hard for the Universe to generate civilizations like the one of ours. I'd like to write to whomever that is that life evolved as fast as it could on our planet; and it took a great deal of time for life to come to where it is today. Sure, sure. But there is a lot more time than the time required to generate a civilization such as the one we are a part of. In fact, we're probably a first generation civilization since our civilization started on one of the first planets shaped around a third or fourth generation star, our sun, our star.
Third and fourth generation stars do likelier than most other stars have planets with metal cores orbiting them. Such planets, as Earth, started to form around three to potentially ten billion years ago, when the first superstars went off in explosions, supernovas, and heavier elements were created. This was probably also the genesis of the first life. Now, the civilizations are probably throughout the Universe starting to expand, but you have to remember that this galaxy of ours is big enough to house a million civilizations. And yet, given they hadn't expanded to over ten to a hundred stars, they would most likely be a hundred to two hundred light years away.

MrSpecial said...

A hundred to two hundred lightyears is so far away that the signals of ours would not have reached the other civilizations in this galaxy. No one has yet heard us, in short.

IM024 said...

we dont have all the pieces to the puzzle, we might think we do .. but in fact we dont.
everytime there has been an invention - there has been an upgrade or complete new system.
it is possible that our exterestrials have made an far more intelligent system.
letting no room for the older versions. if so - we will never get to there level.
because there will allways be an new discovery. new systems and the old just cant compete,
until the extraterestrial beings would like us to join there path.
if so - we would just have to try harder, learn and adapt.

Daniel Regnier said...

OK. I am no expert, so I am not going to discuss the matter. I have just one question. If there is no alien civilisation in KIC8462852 system, what explains the signals we are getting from it?

Gary Graves said...

@Daniel Regnier

My Theory, If these are not of Alien/lifeform descent,Then we've either discovered something which we yet need to understand, e:g JWST just may help identify what it is that where seeing.

Other than that, It not an Alien Race building ships & getting ready to attack the people involved for broadcasting the German Olympic Games Because Hitler is errm supposed to be dead right. (Just some SETI@Home Humour)

Personally I don't think there's actually anything there, And that thought pattern will stay Until I / We've seen Solid evidence that the mainstream morons will abide by.

P.S
Though I will add, I hope it is an Alien Race, or remains of one, or the construction of one.

That's why where all here & 80% of take part in the SETI@Home project.

who knows it could be any of us that find the next breakthrough that Aliens are trying to contact Earth. Not land on the White House Lawn. (who ever said that needs there head examining)lol.

We Need a New Flag for Space Missions, & show that were a united Planet for space exploration & not individuals competing against each other like Kids in a school Class. A Flag that represents Earth as one!

Anders Schönstrom said...

I don´t know if wiki is correct stating that no radio emission from KIC8462852 system was found but perhaps it is possible to collect spectral light to check for Spectral signatures of photosynthesis. If possible, and found, that would be a great indicator for life.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17407410

wiki KIC8462852

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KIC_8462852

The distance of 1480 ly makes the "hitler transmission" antique when they receive it.

Gary Graves said...

@Anders Schönstrom

Even if they was, is, radio signals around KIC8462852, & just say for argument sake it is an Alien Race, there form of radio would be far advanced to ours & operating in frequencies we may not even know exists.

Though I do understand what your talking about an to analyze the atmospheric compositions around the planet by using the light from there star it orbits.
at the moment, we can do this, though it's slow and old tech, this is why I can't wait for the new JWST to come on line, As they have said KIC8462852 will be one for the first targets along with the Orion Star system.

After all we're only Human Beings & nothing amazing or great about us at all, We could just be cattle to some Races out there, even if their technology is advanced beyond our reasoning it don't scream I'm a peaceful Race, more like "Times Up Earthlings, My Kids are starving" lol

However we shall know in no more than 10 years if where alone or not, I say where not. Though this is my prediction, we will find LIFE with-in 10 period.

Illy O said...

I am knew and looking forward and excited to be part of this project.

Константин Шорин said...

Очень интересно жалко я не знаю английского Но буду дальше помогать этому проекту)

Anders Schönstrom said...

I agree Gary. It will be very interesting when JWST comes online.

Welcome llly and konstantin.

My triplets: https://youtu.be/bwSrZtETEHo

meanwhile, I will explore more ways.

Luka Marinović said...

Guys, just that we didn't receive any radio transmission from Tabby star, doesn't mean there isn't one! It just means that we didn't hear it (with current technology with ATA or GBT)... ;)

Dstntroads said...

Mabey they have found a method to push RF energy faster than light speed.

bob atcpu said...

SEE MY EMAIL PHOTO OF TEXT >ALERT XXXXXXX DEC 11 2015

ATTACHMENT THANK YOU

J Douglas Sangster said...

First: A big attaboy to all responders who followed the true spirit of "brainstorming" (includes everyone above) and didn't insert side issues!

Second: Possible purpose of a shield which blocks light from a star: We know the solar wind "blew" away Mar's atmosphere. Could an advanced civilization be protecting their own atmosphere?

Third: Power: We're 20-40 years from having an inexhaustible supply of power; Fusion. With it, we'd be able to construct our own "solar netting".

Fourth: Communications: Dark matter and dark energy: We can quantify their effects but don't have the means to observe them directly. As we advance, will we find "practical uses" utilizing them? I don't have a clue.

Thanks to Mike and all contributors ... very thought provoking!

J Douglas Sangster said...

Forgot one thing:

I personally think (95%) that we're observing a natural phenomena; it's the remaining 5% that's interesting.

football said...

KIC 8462852 is related to Kepler-452b.

Florian Hauser said...

I hope the effect to the star will come again. I think a civilization has something like our electromagnetic-plasma-shield against the solar wind. The reason for, that there is no radio communication could be, that it is a machine-civilization and they have a direct connection or communicate with lightwaves OR they really discovered the overlight communication about a timesynchron-particle and we just dont know how it works but the higher civilizations arround us can use it. lets observe it for years and we will maybe see.

Gary Graves said...

@Luka Marinović

SETI think they already could have tons of data showing intelligent forms of singles, though our computing power isn’t just that powerful enough.
This is why where all here, I’d say 80% of us Run the SETI@Home project via BOINC program so we can help decode all this data, though were still years behind, I think were not even a quarter way trough. (Sadly) but their very well good be a single maybe, YOU are decoding right this second that will change everything, who knows.



@Douglas Sangster

I’ve often thought about dark energy / Dark matter as a form of sub-space
(if you will) which could possibly be used for communications or wait for it, a form of Propulsion for ships, one day, maybe.

Either way, I’ve always said, If I live to see a Manned Mars landing, I’ll be happy


Now I’m grow up, To hear there’s other lifeforms out there just like us & not like us, Then I know I’ll Die Happy

(If I had a few naked hot women around me at the time also, co on, not all of us can leave that out lol.

pbillanie said...

Not sure if anyone has said this already I read the comments but don't recall this being there.

What if this civilisation (if this is a Dyson swarm) isn't broadcasting because it has now died out? They could have ended up destroying themselves, maybe an accident or war or any number of different ways. Perhaps if this is a Dyson swarm, it is all that is left of a once great civilisation.

Isaac Joukhadar said...

I am convinced that there must be a civilization based on phylum Insecta or buggers. was a fluke on our planet the emergence of mammals in such advanced degree. in being so, and if the case in question, as one would imagine insect civilization needing absurd amounts of energy.

Isaac Joukhadar said...

for which reason they would need solar energy in a such amount, which would need an extraordinary investment in time and energy, whether nuclear fusion is much more feasible

Robert Kiser said...

Unsubscribing from this thread as it has devolved into a lot of speculation, but no new ideas. It's great to suggest that alien civilizations might exist, or that they might use advanced technologies that we can't even imagine today, but science requires us to do the hard work of "coloring inside the lines", and use what we know, not what we might imagine.

Since the initial reports on KIC8462852 were publicized, there have been several new papers about the same star. Has anyone here bothered to read them?

Gary Graves said...

@Robert Kiser

Devolved? & Speculation?

Then I've news for you Sir.

That's what Science is all about, well maybe not the devolved part lol, Though the speculation almost positively yes, because that's all Science is, is Best Guess & nothing more.


If threads & forums & departments etc. like this never existed, then I dare say we’d still be living in fear of being strung up & burnt at the stake for suggesting such idea’s.


I don’t mean to be rude, though I’m a tell it as it is kind of guy & your either upset with all the emails you’re getting Robert everyday on this topic & decided that’s it.


Even though I’m new myself to this group, I’ve had a look and I can’t seem to find one comment from you anyway. Though like I say I’m prepaid to be wrong, that’s all your getting lol


Speculation forms new paths to new people who may just have an idea of how to use such a speculated idea. You see there called Dreamers Sir, and without Dreamers we’d still be living in caves.


I’m Proud to be a dreamer and one with crazy insane thoughts & dreams & not to mention Speculations on what might be, or what will happen if I did this or that, Science is full of danger & speculation & that’s how new Technology, your mobile phone & computer not to mention TV sets all that seems you take for granted Sir.

If you would kindly indulge me and just read this, please. on speculation!

This is what Speculation Means.. I'm deferentially amonugst other here, I'd like to call mates=(English Term) so don't worry Guys ok.lmao

Anyway This is what is said about speculation

1.The forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence
2."there has been widespread speculation that he plans to quit" ·
3."this is pure speculation on my part" · "these are only speculations"

bob atcpu said...

keep the good work up Mike
my dedicated computer crashed again due to over load of data from seti@home from Aricebo
2011yr frame time window 2nd computer and 2nd power supply just could NOT keep UP with the calculation density.
ok I have to just deal with the asteroids@home data when i get the system up and running again.

When the James Webb telescope is up and running more data will come in on KIC

cheers! thanks for your blog Mike you got a great site!!

Gary Graves said...

@bob atcpu

You know pal, I also has issue's with the Arecibo Location a few days ago, I'll just have to collect as much data as I can for the DEVs.

Also! oh hell,

When JWST comes online, with-in a few month where going to find something amazing.
Well if she runs smoothly as planned.

already logged the date into Livestream to watch it liftoff!

Anders Schönstrom said...

New interesting candidate.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/videos/04b1e2f4db5217a830f3fb9f7e5dc21d.htm

if we redirect one Voyager probe...maybe it will be there AD 12000 ;)
But it could certainly be a job for the James Webb Telescope

Lívia Deme said...

It wouldt be good, if we get answer from another civilization.

Anders Schönstrom said...

I agree. It wouldt. :)

Paul Haynes said...

How about a completely different approach on this.

What if it I s the star that is producing the flux problem?

Is it possible for there to be so many star spots that it is affecting the output.

Apologies for throwing out aliens as my first thought.

Dryson Bennington said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dryson Bennington said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dryson Bennington said...

Everyone assumes that a Level II civilization would use radio waves to communicate with. I think a level two II civilization might use gravity to communicate with since time is the only force that can affect gravity.

Since gravity is basically ones and zero's to a computer an advanced civilization would be able to quantify information packets to interact with gravity and then transmit the information across time using gravity.

We know that gravity affects light and can bend it but can light bend gravity? Gravity would therefore be the easiest and most cost effective method of communication for Type II civilizations. Using gravity to communicate means that a Type II civilization could send a message across time using the gravity of each planet to send a packet of information stored in gravity. Since gravity would be able to be controlled and directed the packet of information could be sent in any direction using a planets gravity thus allowing the information packet to be transmitted to a location in a planets gravity where an interaction would take place that would then direct that information packet to a new location in the gravity field until it was received by the recipients antenna array. I would have to think that a type II civilization would be able to communicate through gravity using quantum gravity or possibly the form of energy that was present before the Big Bang that for a moment allowed information to travel faster than the speed of light.

Is gravity able to bend gravity? Does gravity interact with other forms of gravity much the same way that atoms interact with each to create new elements? Such a communication node within gravity itself being able to connect gravity together would create nodes of information exchange.

After all Einstein said it was relative. If two atoms with similar characteristics are relative to each other and connect to create a new element and that those atoms create gravity the ability of gravity to have two similar characteristics relative to each other based on the atoms characteristics would also connect together.

Dryson Bennington said...

You might also want to provide some working and a nice research paper on how electrons can be moved, energised and de-energised *without* creating radio waves and other photons. *That* would get you some respect.

*sigh*

How? Simply create a tunnel through space time where gravity does not interfere with the transmission process. It is said that right after the Big Bang information accelerated faster than the speed of light then something caused the information to travel at the speed of light.

I know the Higgs-Boson is only theoretical but it would make sense to use the same process. What the particles are the give mass to a particle passing through a Higgs field is the particle that would in my opinion carry the information packet. The information packet would travel faster than the speed of light from the sending antenna where it would be coded to only interact with a particle of a certain type along its path of travel and at the receiving antenna. This would make the transfer of information encoded unless you knew how to use particles without to capture the Higgs particle with the information stored on it. Once at the receiver the Higgs particle would interact with a determined particle where mass is added to the particle. The particles with mass would then transfer the message by energizing (closing the circuit to allow electricity to travel) and de-energizing (opening the circuit to keep electricity from traveling) that would equate into ones and zero's that a computer would translate using Logic Gates into the civilizations written language.

Gary Graves said...

We all could be wrong about type II civilization or any of them for that matter.

An Alien Race might see a type II civilization as something else altogether & on there scale we could already be a type 3 or so on.

@Dryson Bennington

You might also want to provide a paper? & what was it you called it, oh yes workings on your proposal ?

!Sighs!

Calm down man, I'm only taking p+ss, you left yourself open & I ....well couldn't resist lol

Though I will admit, your idea does sound plausible.

Pace to all for 2016 :)

Jd West said...

I see we are thinking in a degree of the civilization on a planet from the comments as to communicating on a level of radio waves, I'm sure that is the most natural conclusion to come to but i like thinking outside the box to say, what if were looking at such an advance civilization that it's more than that,sure they have interstellar travel, the ability to travel through space by such modes as (worm holes) though theoretical but plausible, these beings are energy like we are and everything around us,could the link we are trying to make be on a different level of energy, suggesting maybe a look into different quantum theories to tap into a level of consciousnesses we have to discover to make that link.

Gary Graves said...

@Jd West

I Totally get that & it's a pretty cool proposal, and why not! For me personally I've thought where maybe listening to the wrong type of energy, with ours being based upon radio waves etc. for some time now.
Maybe there are other forms of energy out there more suitable for communications that we've still not detected.

However we need to grow up & fast before we start communicating with anything other than ourselves.

Until then I'm ashamed to be Human!

Luka Marinović said...

well, Paul Haynes...no, star can't produce 20% dimming, unless it's destabilizing in a way we haven't seen before...so I'm pretty sure it's not destabilizing!

on, Dryson Bennington...no you can't stop & release gravity as you'd pointed out...that would produce ripples in Space-time continuum...and even if such device exists in K2 or K3 civilization, I'm pretty sure they don't use it...'cause they wouldn't want to destabilize Space-time continuum that way!

maybe they have a quantum-field communicator which instantly across space delivers information...some say it's even faster than light, even on some papers?!
but, surely...SETI scientist say that ATA might be too small receiver to catch signals from Tabby star!

Paul Haynes said...

If the census is that the star is not destabilising, as this phenomena has not been seen before and we have seen lots of stars. The next is for there to be attenuation from objects obstructing our view. The idea of cometary bodies does have a nice fit from the available observations but more data is needed.

Maybe the next snapshot of the star will give more evidence to lead to a definitive conclusion.

In the early days of astronomy when telescopes were pointed at Venus the planet remained clouded in mystery. So the conclusion was there must be dinosaurs there.

This conclusion was arrived at from the following...

Venus has clouds.
Must be lots of water vapour to make the clouds.
For that water the surface must be very wet
Swamp lands would exist is very wet conditions.
Dinosaurs used to live in swamps.

Therefore. Venus is cloudy... There are dinosaurs.

As far as alien civilisations go. I do hope they don't bother with us. As a species we do let ourselves down and I wouldn't want someone else to find out about it.

Paul

Gary Graves said...

Don't forget People who help SETI@Home research!

BONIC V.8 is being rolled out shortly & with this comes along the ability to decode for the first time other data from other Telescopes from around the world & not left to just The Arecibo Observatory any longer.

The Update should be automatic & all v.7 will stop in due time, Below is part of the Notice for them that have either missed it or still not seen it.


SETI@home version 8 has been released. This version finally gives us the ability to process data from multiple sources, including the Green Bank Telescope. That means we'll be ready for data from Breakthrough Listen when it's available.


We're releasing the versions for CPUs first. We'll release versions for graphics processing units (GPUs) and Android devices as they come available. We're releasing slowly so as not to overtax our download server. This update will happen automatically, unless you use a special version you got from another web site.


We've also made small changed to our science code to improve the Gaussian fitting routines. This means version 8 results are not compatible with version 7. So if you use a version of SETI@home you got from another site, or if you compile your own version, you'll need to get or build a version 8 application. I'm sure link will be made available in the Number Crunching forum.


GTood Luck People... Peace!

Everseeker said...

If the SETI Project is still looking for intelligence that is actively seeking contact, then looking for a signal in the electromagnetic spectrum that would propagate the farthest without being absorbed (especially by hydrogen) and looking for a section that is otherwise fairly quiet would be a good idea, because the odds are, that's what the other intelligence did.
And gee, that's where we are mostly looking

Anders Schönstrom said...

I think thers two discussions here. One is about KIC8462852 and a possible Dyson sphere. I dont beleive in this scenario. The idea of a sphere buildt around a sun to harvest its energy is not likely to happen. Where would they get all the material from? What would they use all that sun's energy for?? If those aliens living there are so smart builders, they would certainly use nature better. Nature tend to utilize the least amount of energy needed for every process. Not the opposite. They wouldnt use a whole star! They perhaps would use a whole Higgs particle! ;) I beleive KIC8462852 has a perfectly natural explanation. Perhaps a mix of big sunspots and close orbiting planetary debris.

The other discussion is about using electromagnetic waves workingin light speed, for communicating with other species out there. I refer to what I wrote earlier. :-)

As a SETI home user I wonder what happens to all data that is collected. How are the finds evaluated? What make a find interesting? A triplet perhaps or something elese. What is done to evaluate all data. Graphs?, manual eyeballing curves? What? And has there been any interesting finds what so ever? :)

Until the humanity start behaving better to the planet earth and its inhabitants and their enviroment I think its better we stay alone in our corner of the universe.